Tim Elliot: Hello and welcome to Lawgical, the legal podcast from the Dubai-based law firm HPL Yamalova & Plewka and the U.A.E.’s first legal podcast. As always, our razor-sharp legal brain with me is Ludmila Yamalova. She is the Managing Partner of the Dubai-based law firm, HPL Yamalova & Plewka. Always good to see you.
Ludmila Yamalova: Love to see you too, Tim. Thank you for hosting this once again.
Tim Elliot: Our special guest, is Dr. Samaa Al Abd. She is an Egyptian/British Child and Adolescent Consultant Psychiatrist. She has been practicing medicine in the U.K. since 1985 and in Dubai since 2015. Dr. Al Abd practices at Keith Nicoll Medical Centre here in Dubai and at the Cromwell Hospital in London. Dr. Samaa, it’s great of you to join us on Lawgical.
Dr. Samaa Al Abd: Thank you, Tim, for hosting me.
Tim Elliot: Let’s move onto Episode 2 or maybe Chapter 2 in our special series of podcasts covering both the legal and psychological aspects of a number of very specific topics with our two guests. In Episode 2 we are talking divorce and separation here in the U.A.E. Now the main theme of this podcast, Dr. Samaa, if I can start with you, will really ultimately be, I guess, typical issues you see resulting from a divorce or a separation and how you counsel your clients through them. Can I begin with, once again, a relatively vague question? But the typical issues that you see from your clients arising from marital issues?
Dr. Samaa Al Abd: Divorce can happen in an amicable way and in a non amicable way. The non amicable way is always a very difficult one, when the couple are almost like in a fighting mode, and sometimes not just a couple, but it is the wider family as well. In some cultures, of course, when you have a closely knit community, there are other people involved in this. It becomes very difficult for the couple, the children of course, when there are children. Unfortunately, some of the children become the tool that the parents are fighting with, and that is very sad to see and hear. I have, not in this country, but in another country, a couple where we are seeing them because of divorce and they actually had a physical fight in the waiting room, and we had to have security get involved. But this describes to you, the level of anger and upset between the couple. I’m talking about these parents, because I see them as parents of the children, these parents needing to sit at the table to have some agreement amongst themselves about the children, about visitation rights, about information to share about the children, and it is quite sad to see that there is a price to be paid in these kinds of discord amongst the couple where the children’s interest are not at the top of the list. It is more of a personal issue between the couple, and that is very hard to see, and you can see the effect of this on the children, short term as well as long term. Sometimes it’s the teachers at the school who notice the difficulties and actually ask for the children to be referred because of the children displaying behavior problems amongst their peer group, or not paying attention to their studies or work, or the children getting really quite depressed and sometimes coming to school unkempt, not looking well, or not eating well. It has wider implications on the couple, as well as on the children and the siblings on the whole.
Ludmila Yamalova: And so, going back to that example of that couple, how do you help them? How can you help them if the anger and, I guess, hatred is so severe as to not to be able to restrain themselves from a physical fight in the doctor’s office? How do you help them?
Tim Elliot: It’s a great question because when you said that it was a physical fight in the waiting room, I looked at Ludmila, you looked at me, and there was a visible and audible intake of breath there that it got to that point. How on earth do you deal with that?
Dr. Samaa Al Abd: I think sometimes you know with some couples you say, seek legal advice first because once you have your mind at rest that some of the things are going to get protected and you know where you stand, you might be in a position to actually talk about the children and talk about the wellbeing of the children. It’s really where to start with a couple. Sometimes you talk to the couple, trying to think of how you can improve the relationship. It depends on the degree of the anger and upset is and whether it is long term, something that’s been building up over the years and this is just the tip of the iceberg, or is it something that’s impulsive, that just happened in the waiting room, and where in fact there is so much positive to build on. One makes a judgment based on what you see at the time. You just really need to analyze things and start with a solution that is appropriate for that couple in that situation. It might be that the legal one is the first one. It might be that remediation is the way forward. It might be that the couple is unable to talk about their relationship, but they are able to talk about the children and the arrangements for the children. You start with arrangements regarding that behavior management where the couple can work around the children, but not around themselves at that particular point until they’re ready for it. Where you start depends on the circumstances and the couple involved.
Ludmila Yamalova: So, do you see these kinds of divorces or issues that lead to divorces being somewhat different or particular to this region? Because many of us are strangers here and this is not our home turf, because one thing, when you have a family and you have a family discord, and you’re surrounded by family and you’re surrounded by lifelong friends and a support network, and it’s another thing when you live in a place, like Dubai. Some of us have lived here for a very long time, but even those of us who have lived here for a very long time, it does happen that it is a very transient place and a lot of long-term friends might not be around anymore, so we don’t even have that kind of network of friends to tap into to lend their ears to us, or to vent our frustrations, or just to hold our hand, or just to comfort, or make a couch available for a night or two. We don’t have as much of that here as perhaps we would in our home countries and home cities. So, do you see any, I guess, divorce issues that are particular to this region, be it because these are Muslim families, or mixed couples, or because they are young couples that are from the region. Are there any kind of peculiar issues or cases that you have seen that are more specific or interesting to this region?
Dr. Samaa Al Abd: I think the region is so diverse that it’s really hard to say that there is something specific. You have the diversity in expats here, marriages of couples coming from different countries themselves, and then you have people who have been expats here for a long time, generation wise. You see people whose parents were born here, and then you have local people. It’s such a diverse community. I think the thing that happens with couples, for example, the expats, is that when one decides to leave the marriage, then the issues arise where they might return back to their home country, and then the issue arises that the children are not going to have access to visitation on a regular basis just because of the distance and the mileage involved. You might have parents who decide to divide the children, to take one child to one county to stay with one parent and another child staying with the other parent. Maybe there are bigger issues than the ones that you face when they are living in the same city, for example. These are difficulties. I think, as you said, expats might not have the community support that they might have in their own home country, or family. Lots of expats are stand alone here with their own family unit. These are all issues that are difficult, and not being familiar maybe as we said with the law, with the legal side, and I think there is more of a reason to actually empower people with what they should do in advance of these problems happening.
Ludmila Yamalova: It’s interesting. You used the word empower and seeking advice timely to perhaps have that sort of roadmap to see how to manage their way into the new chapter of their lives as part of their divorce or separation. I think empowerment could be there, but equally so, I think the information or education is important to understand that is some cases, in many cases, the options actually can be quite limited. The couple examples that you described, because it didn’t take place here, I can see, and we have seen this where they put on boxing gloves and go at each other because at the end, what they are fighting for is at a minimum 50/50. That is what they are fighting for. But in most cases, one or the other decides they want a little more from that. Whereas, for example, here if it’s a Muslim family or a Muslim couple under Sharia, the options are different. We have counseled a number of women who are preparing for divorce, wanting a divorce or separating, upset, angry, because of the discord that’s going on in their families, in particular perhaps with their husbands cheating or taking other wives, and so people are very upset, and they want, and we have seen a number of them that come to us wanting to put those boxing gloves on and go start fighting. But in fact, the advice we provide to them, because in legal terms their options here are more limited than they would be, for example, in a different jurisdiction in terms of what they can demand as alimony or financial support, on the one hand, and on the other hand, in terms of what they can demand and expect in terms of guardianship and custody. In many other jurisdictions, for example, guardianship and custody are one and the same, so there is no difference. Guardianship is the legal right and ultimately the decision making over the children’s lives, and then custody is more physical, possession of the kids. In other jurisdictions, custody and guardianship are one and the same. The default is that basically, even at its worst, however you want to look at it in terms of parent’s right over the children, it will be 50/50. But in many cases, the woman gets the priority over the children.
We see a lot of cases here where the women come, and they are very upset and they want to be able to divorce, but in fact, legally speaking, in terms of the financial arrangements that they can expect, there is nothing. In divorce here under Sharia, there is very limited alimony for the children, but not for the wife. Under Sharia, whatever is yours is yours, and what is mine is mine. Therefore, let’s say, and we see many, many cases like this, you have a stay-at-home mom and a breadwinner dad, and then fast forward 15 to 20 years, they get divorced. In many cases, the dad has a bank account and some properties in his name. As they had lived together, it was all sort of communal and equal until they are no longer wanting to stay together, and so there is this expectation of oh, obviously I will get 50% of the estate. Well, you don’t. If you divorce here, you don’t. If the house is in the husband’s name, then it remains to be his, and you don’t have any right to it. If the husband has a bank account into which his salary and savings and commissions and bonuses and end-of-service have been deposited, that money is his. The wife has only what she has earned or what is in her name. A lot of people don’t know that. They will come to us, “I want a divorce.” Fair enough. At a human level you understand, and you sympathize and want to support them, but at a legal level and practical level, it’s important to educate them. That is what we do. We say, that’s fine. You just need to know. You need to prepare yourself that in a Sharia divorce, financially you are on your own, and then legally with regards to the children, depending on the age of the children and depending on the sex of the children, but ultimately the father by default has legal guardianship of the children always. You cannot waiver that. You cannot change that under Sharia, which means the father has a legal right over the children and the decision making over where they live, where they go to school and so on and so forth. That is in legal terms. The mother has physical custody depending on the age of the children as well, which basically means they can live with her, but if mother doesn’t work, she cannot really support them. Yes, in that particular case, if the father wants the children to stay with the mother, then he has the obligation to pay for the children while they are with the mother. But as you said, so many of these divorces are so acrimonious unfortunately and so heated and emotional that often parents use children as tools just to get at each other or just to get their side of the bargain. We’ve seen many cases where the father, for example, you know that the mother has a close relationship with the children based on their descriptions, and the mother would want the children to stay with her, the children want to stay with her, and ultimately the father as well is not perhaps as much involved in the children, but just because legally speaking he has a default right to the children, he will play that card.
It’s heartbreaking to have to advise somebody.
Hey, listen, we understand your situation, but in legal terms you just need to know this is what the system is, and you need to know that so that you can plan your actions with that in mind.
We have had a number of Muslim families, most of whom, not all, but most of whom are of different nationalities, so people that in other jurisdictions that perhaps divorces would be dealt with differently, but here, as long as they divorce here, it will subject to Sharia – though this is changing now with the new laws. In those cases it is equally important to educate them, but to educate them not necessarily to empower them to put their boxing gloves on and start punching or fighting, but rather to manage their expectations and to be wise in terms of how they manage this dispute in order to ensure that they ultimately end up with what matters to them the most, which in most cases is the children.
Education is important, but in particular in our practice, what we’ve seen is that it’s equally important to help people understand that their options may be limited and therefore, they should learn to manage their expectations.
Dr. Samaa Al Abd: You are quite right, Ludmila. Divorce can sometimes be like a volcano, and when a volcano erupts, we know how destructive it is because the content is so hot and it’s very destructive. What is important in the divorce is information, as you quite rightly mentioned, but also information to be given when the volcano has settled or before the volcano erupts, even better, so you’re well informed about all the pros and cons and the roadmap is clear, not at the time when the volcano is erupting and your vision is very foggy. It’s actually when your vision is clear because that will help in the right decision making. I think a lot of times with a couple it is to actually talk about all the pros and cons of different scenarios and all the different solutions, and it’s to them then to decide which solution to choose, whether to stay in the marriage despite of things happening that the person didn’t like because on balance it is much more positive than actually acting and making a decision when one is angry. Decisions when one is angry are never the right ones. One has to settle and think clearly, and then make the right decisions, and know one’s right and the pros and cons, as you mentioned. That will help the person. As I mentioned, because I am a child psychiatrist, it is important that the children are not the ones paying the price. I tell parents sometimes, “What if, in 20 years, you see your son or daughter suffering because 20 years earlier you did not address these things?” You need to think of all these things now, rather than waiting 20 years to see somebody paying the price for the actions you’ve made. I’m not saying that the right decision is to stay together because sometimes, with some couples, and I hear it also from the children, that the best thing that happened was that the parents did separate and divorce. I’m talking about couples where things were really not working well. It wasn’t the right match, and the children were actually paying even a higher price with the couple being together. One has to really balance everything. I’m not saying that the right thing is always staying together either.
Ludmila Yamalova: You’re right. Talking about information and having a roadmap, one of the cases tha we had was quite interesting and I think it is very pointed to what you said. It was an American family who came here. In fact, they were both fairly accomplished professionally and they had met at a graduate school in the U.S. The father was a very senior executive and he was moved here from the U.S. because of his job. Because they had three children and they were growing up, I think teenagers at that point, so kind of early teens, and at some point in time the mother has stopped working because obviously taking care of the three children, though remember, they met in a graduate school, so back in the old days they were quite well accomplished. At some point, as happens so often as is the case with so many families where one or the other parent decides to stay at home to take care of the kids. In that case, it was the woman who we represented. They moved here with the husband’s job. She was not working, or the three children. Those of us who have lived here long enough would know what that means. Therefore, he was the father. He was not just the breadwinner, but he was also the so-called sponsor, using the U.A.E. term, which means what? The visa was on him. The children were on his visa. The wife is on his visa. The children were in school on the basis of the visa where the father is the sponsor, and then the car that they bought or rented actually, was in his name. The house that they rented was in his name. The phone lines were in his name. The bank accounts were in his name. Everything was in his name. This is perhaps a normal arrangement and would be perfectly fine in the U.S. in the event of a divorce, but all of a sudden the wife found out that the husband, actually he told her, he was leaving her. This was just only a year in their life in the U.A.E. and because the husband was having an affair with somebody in the office and decided to leave. So, it wasn’t just an affair. He basically told her that he wanted a divorce and a break. This woman comes to us and at the end she was so lost because she has nothing in legal terms and practical terms. The house where they lived was in his name. I think only the car was in her name. The phones themselves, the phone plans, were in his name. The bank accounts were in his name. Everything. The visas were in his name. She felt very, very vulnerable on so many fronts, not only because this was happening to a family that had been together for so many years and had already teenaged children, but also happening to her, who once used to be a professional woman, but made a choice to put her career on hold to support her husband and even move to a country to support him, and then to come here and he is leaving for a younger person. She has no career of her own, but more importantly she does not even really have immediate funds to support herself. Now, it is not to say that he completely cut her off. It was more just her realization that oh, my goodness, I have nothing of my own, so if he wanted to disconnect my phone line, he can. If he wants to basically change the locks in the house, he can. If he wants to stop giving me money, he can. Now, it wasn’t that acrimonious in that case. It was more we were advising her on how to just actually do the separation. We helped with a settlement agreement and ultimately worked almost as mediators between the two of them, which in their case helped, but it was the realization that even for a non Muslim family, because we are foreigners here, I have nothing of my own. I feel very exposed. I feel very vulnerable.
So, I think education in that case, and that is what I would love for more people to perhaps listen to this podcast and know that anyone who either is planning to move here or is planning to get married, it’s not too late, just remember to have things of your own. That was basically our advice. Now, before you move forward, here is your roadmap. Open up your own bank account. Perhaps get your own phone line. Just basic things that we all require to survive here. I just wish that more people had that because not having these kinds of tools and feeling yourself being so dependent on someone else I think leads to so much more emotional instability and distress and perhaps it only exacerbates the couple’s existing issues. I don’t know if you see much of that in your practice, but that is a perfect example and a classical example where information is power. Had she only had that information it would have been a lot less emotionally taxing in a situation that’s already very emotionally depressing when the family is falling apart.
Dr. Samaa Al Abd: I totally agree. Another example is somebody whose husband actually suddenly and it was unpredictable. He was not in ill health, so they did not plan anything. He died suddenly. Again, one of the first things, the phone was registered in his name. The bank account was frozen, so she had no access to money. She was a very distraught, grieving mother of two children, whose husband had died suddenly, and then she had all of these problems on top of the grief which was very difficult to deal with. As I said, you don’t prepare for these things when you come as a young couple, happily married. We all have dramatic things happening in our lives, and the more prepared you are, the better. But it was very difficult for her for her phone to be cut, having to register for a new phone, and not have access to money immediately to pay day-to-day bills because the bank account was frozen.
Ludmila Yamalova: So having the right information at the right time, as we talk about it, brings back so many memories of our own cases here that I wanted to share another story. It was a European couple from Norway, a Norwegian couple. They were married for 20-some odd years, and then they decided to get divorced here. Well, in Norway, a case of a divorce is fairly simple, it is 50/50 and everything is equitable, and there isn’t really much you can do. That would also include respective spouse’s businesses. If one or the spouse both had businesses, even though the other spouse’s name would not be on that business, but under the laws of many countries, particularly in Europe, all that would be shared more or less 50/50 in general terms. Here in this case, the woman was being divorced. The husband filed for divorce, so she was ready to go in with her guns blazing and putting her boxing gloves on. Let’s fight. I’m going to get everything to the penny, including the business that was his business that was based here in the U.A.E. Interestingly enough, under the relevant laws, substantively anything to do, for example, in Europe, if they were to be divorced in Europe, everything in regard to their assets in Europe would be divided 50/50, and that is fairly easy. There isn’t much of a fight around that. Then, with regard to any of the assets here, the law does provide for the application of the law that you can choose the law of your own country to apply here, but it’s a fairly expensive and complicated process because basically you ultimately have to educate a local judge here of what the laws in Norway are, and that’s the reality of it. For all those who haven’t had proceedings here, everything in the local courts is is Arabic. Now you take your divorce matter and you try to apply a foreign law that perhaps may be drafted in a language other than English and then you have to educate a local judge here in Arabic about that law. So, in this case, the woman was going to fight. She was really eager, and she just said, “I don’t care. I don’t care. I won’t take a penny less. I want to fight. I want to do all this.” We advised her not to do it. We advised her it would be very expensive, and it would be time consuming and it would be difficult because ultimately under the European law we could claim 50% of the husband’s business here, but it will be a fairly long and expensive process for us to convince the court, to educate the court about what the in Norway was and how it would apply here. We advised, among other things, for our client to seek counsel from the likes of Dr. Samaa. We can only do so much. We’re only lawyers here. We couldn’t reason with her, and so she went with her guns blazing, and she was bleeding money because it is expensive. It’s expensive. It’s time consuming. It’s frustrating to go into courts. Even though substantively, she could rely on the laws that she wanted to rely, but procedurally and practically it was so expensive and cumbersome that, had she only listened, had she only listened, it would have resulted in a very different outcome and much sooner. When we see divorces, people obviously decide to separate for a reason, and when you try to reason with them, it’s for us in particular, for lawyers, very difficult to reason with them. Often in the end we have to let them do what they want to do, but would have so loved for that couple and so many of our clients to have gone and sought professional and medical advice and counseling from Dr. Samaa or her colleagues because I think it would have really, really helped them. At the end, you fast forward, and when all of that heat subsides, they come to their senses and then decide, oh okay, let’s actually do it differently because there is an easy way of doing it. I think in cases like this if they had actually sought the medical counsel along the way it would have helped them diffuse their fuse perhaps earlier.
Dr. Samaa Al Abd: I’m just thinking about the change in society and communities across different countries really. Like in the past when one wanted to do research one went to the local library and maybe to the city library to find the papers and the books that one wanted to get information from. Things have changed, of course. You can do it online. You can google everything. You can get your papers on the screen very quickly. Now, with societies and communities, things have changed too. In the old days, you had support from the local community. You had wider members of the family who had the stories and anecdotes about this person getting divorced and what they did and another person getting divorced. You had this input of information from the wider community. Whereas, I think nowadays a lot of the couples are stand alone. They are independent. They move into another country. They don’t have their support, and that’s where I think the information is even more needed than when you are getting it locally where you are living in your own country. So, there is more need of it than it the past, than maybe 50 years ago when you relied a lot on these anecdotes and stories, of real stories.
Ludmila Yamalova: I want to have that sort of magic recipe that’s available to us here where we can convince someone, like the examples I gave, to please go seek advice. How do you sell that idea because just so many of our clients would benefit from so much if they only could be convinced to go and talk to a professional that could help them see things differently. I don’t know. How do you convince someone to go and, for example, consult with you or your colleagues? What’s the magic bullet? Is there one?
Dr. Samaa Al Abd: We did talk about stigma earlier. It is important to highlight for whoever is coming that it is totally confidential. Whoever the professional is who is helping is trying to help them make their own decisions, but they are actually putting across to them the roadmap that they can choose from. I think the recipe, like with any recipe, it has lots of different ingredients. I don’t think it’s just the counseling or the psychiatric help. Actually, the ingredients are various, including the legal one. If I have some good legal advice, it might put my mind at rest, my anxieties would be less. It’s addressing your anxieties from a different angle too. It is a multidisciplinary sort of input and help.
Ludmila Yamalova: And equally so for our cases. If we could just – and we’ve tried. Trust me, we’ve tried so many times. That is why I asked the question. If we could just convince one parent or the other to go and talk to a consultant or a psychiatrist like yourself so that they can understand what’s happening, for example, to the children as part of this dynamic and particularly the detriment that is carried through to the children as part of this. Ironically enough, according to them in most cases it’s the children that they’re fighting for, that they are doing all this in the interests of the children, but in fact, from the outside sitting on the sidelines you see the children are the ones who are suffering. So, if they could only be convinced to go and talk to someone who could show them that. Listen, in fact, whatever you are doing is not helping the children. Because what they’re saying to us is that we’re doing it in the name of the children, for the children, to protect the children, but in reality we know, not being a professional in your field, but we know the children are not benefiting from this. So often we wish that if they could just understand that and see that from that perspective, that it would change their legal position, it would change their expectations for the better of everyone. But it is, like you said, it’s a multidisciplinary issue. It’s not easy for us to figure out and see these people literally leading to destruction on all fronts only because they refuse to consult a professional.
Tim Elliot: Can I come back to the idea of community for a second, to Dr. Samaa. Over the last seven or eight months, most countries in the world have been locked down in one way or another because of COVID-19, the coronavirus, and what we’ve seen is couple perhaps having to spend more time together than they otherwise would have done, people cooped up together, using the dining table as a home office, and you can see where friction may arise. I’m wondering what your experience has been during these COVID-19 times and what you’ve seen in terms of couples coming to see you, whether divorce or potential divorces, divorce cases have risen. What’s your experience been?
Dr. Samaa Al Abd: We know, for example, that during COVID-19 anxiety has risen a great deal amongst young people and the parents. There are lots of reasons for that. It’s worrying about one’s health, about other members of the family falling ill, about being locked down at home, not mixing with your peer group or with your friends and relatives, not being hugged, I think it’s a major thing not being hugged and hugging other people, really hard, and actually not just that, you’re just worried about them infecting you. You’re not hugging them and you’re actually very cautious about even getting any closer to them, so avoidance as well. These are all, I think, things that have emerged in COVID-19. And then we know that domestic violence has increased and that abuse has increased. I know that this is the case. Abusers have felt more confident. The children are not going to school, and they’re not going to report what is happening. Their contact with the outside world is not happening. Children who get abused, they report it a lot of times to the teachers or through a social worker if they’re involved with social services. That hasn’t been happening, of course, so the abuse had increased, and of course, irritability in the home environment has increased too because some families live in a very confined area, a one-bedroom flat with little kids running around, and the parents having to do their work from home. You can see how irritability and the anger increases in the family life and being exposed to each other 24 hours a day has been very hard on some families. One needs one’s escape, whether it’s to go to work or to go to school or to meet with your peer group and have that support, and this was not happening.
I remember there was a piece of research a long time ago among doctors that the highest divorce was when doctors were married to doctors and they went on holiday, this is the time when they actually started to divorce because they were working so hard and they spent a portion of their time together when they were working and then suddenly during a holiday they realized how different they were. It is handy to have different pockets in one life of where you are spending different times with different people. If this is not happening, it can cause aggressive behavior at home. So yes, COVID-19 has been a difficult time.
Ludmila Yamalova: Have you seen many more cases come to you because of it? If so, how have you been able to handle them without being able to see patients physically like we used to do before?
Dr. Samaa Al Abd: A lot of the practice during the lockdown has not been face to face, luckily. I like to always think about the positives. Luckily, we have platform meetings with patients, and I think that’s been great, including teaching actually medical students and masters. I don’t know, if we had the lockdown without all the technology, what would have happened because this has been possible to actually see individuals on Zoom or on Teams, and actually it is quite nice because you see the young person in their room with their teddy bears. You are able to talk to family members who cuddle up on the same sofa to talk to you, whereas in some clinical consultations the young person comes just with a mom or dad and I don’t see family members. I also see their pets, and they are very proud to show me their paintings at home. I like to think there is always a positive element. There is nothing to substitute a face-to-face consultation, but I think there are also positives for the online consultations too.
Tim Elliot: I guess as well, you get to see firsthand where somebody lives, and that must help you. There must be some triggers there where you think, okay, that points in a specific direction.
Dr. Samaa Al Abd: Absolutely. I see the children’s bedrooms, their paintings, or their dolls on the shelf behind their desk, and we have a chat about this. It’s a nice entry to a consultation too.
Ludmila Yamalova: So presumably it has been effective. Therefore, you can consult and you can help people and assist people even in this digital format?
Dr. Samaa Al Abd: Yes, absolutely.
Ludmila Yamalova: If that’s the case, I wonder if that makes your service a lot more broadly available perhaps to people who otherwise would not want or would not know how to avail themselves of, or could not because let’s say somebody lives somewhere far and it would take them two hours to drive to see you, or if they are in a different country, or if that stigma that you talked about, they don’t want to be seen or to even be physically affiliated with a place that treats or deals with mental issues. I would imagine that in many ways opens up a lot more portals for people out there to actually seek counsel without having to deal with the inconvenience, the drive, the stigma, and the physical kind of experience. That’s the positive that you were talking about.
Dr. Samaa Al Abd: I think you’re right. It is one of the positives. I remember when I worked at Guy’s Hospital and we had like a Child Psychiatric Unit there. Families would say, we really like the idea that we’re going to Guy’s Hospital which was a general hospital with all of the specialities. They didn’t have to mention that they’re coming too. We’re talking about stigma in other countries too. Whereas in another clinic, for example, where I worked in the U.K. it was a standard Child Psychiatric Clinic where you would say, I am going to that clinic. People find it easier, and then you can do it in your own time. You can start with a young person on their privately, and then on Zoom, for example, or Teams, you can actually ask or invite the parents towards the end of the session, the last 15 minutes, to see their views and to share with them the things that you agreed with the young person to share with the parent. It gives a different perspective to things.
Ludmila Yamalova: That’s encouraging to hear because, once again, I can see how many of our clients would actually benefit from the ability to reach out to someone else without having the excuse of, well, the timing doesn’t work, I don’t drive, or I’m too far, or I don’t want to be affiliated with this. My job is, I guess, to continue to figure out a way to reason with people and to convince them to seek help because we deal with a lot of family cases and, sadly, most of the time they do lead to divorces, and it’s just very difficult, not just for the family, but even for us as practitioners trying to counsel and guide them, and they lose reason. It’s very difficult for everyone. I just hope that now knowing all of the things the world population will be a lot more receptive to being able to seek counsel in this new era in this new format which is via digital means. Hopefully more people will avail themselves of that help.
Dr. Samaa Al Abd: I’m sure the same applies to getting legal support or legal advice because you might not want to formally be seen going to a law firm to discuss something legally, but it might come much easier, closer to the heart actually to doing an online consultation when you want to clarify something to give you a better roadmap.
Ludmila Yamalova: It has been, and to be honest with you, we are after the lockdown we were all wondering, how many people would actually want to come back again to the physical form and would want to actually meet personally because it was so convenient to just do it online. The technology had been around for a long time, just the mindset wasn’t there to embrace it. But after the lockdown, there was a massive paradigm shift. All of a sudden, that became the new norm, and we were wondering, is that going to be the norm? But as you rightfully said, we’re all humans and there is really no replacement for physical contact. People still have come back and they do want physical interaction, but by the same token, you just had so many more people who now have access to seeking legal help as well with us by not having to fly and to come and see us in person and by now also not having to adjust to this. What is it going to be like to do this consultation or meeting online? It’s not kind of a ubiquitous experience in our lives.
Tim Elliot: Finally, let me ask you a question, Ludmila. We’ve seen lots and lots of revisions to legal principles and laws in the last couple of weeks, laws that have been revised and taken many of us by surprise. Let’s just run through the relevance of those to this podcast.
Ludmila Yamalova: Yea, so in relevant terms, we were talking in this particular episode about divorces. The U.A.E. did amend it’s personal status law. The amendments were published in the Official Gazette just a few weeks ago, on November 30th, so the law is now in effect. As far as divorces are concerned, the law clearly now states that it’s the law of the state where the marriage was registered that would apply to the divorce, which is different from how the laws were drafted before. Before the laws provided for the law of the husband that would apply. You can see the potential issues that would arise and have arisen because of that, because so many of us here come from different countries and hold different passports and to have the laws of the husband apply is often not what even the couple would want to have applied to them, to be honest with you. So now the law clearly brings it more neutral and clearly brings it to the state where the marriage was initiated. The way the law is drafted and the reasonable presumption is that this particular law applies to everyone equally, and it talks about non nationals. Therefore, the presumption is that it applies to all non nationals, in other words, not just non Muslims, but also the non national Muslims. Anyone let’s say from a different country, but who is registered in the U.A.E. as a Muslim in the past they would have been subject to Sharia under this new law, at least the presumption is that they will have a choice of what law to apply, whether they want Sharia to apply or whether they want the law of the country where their marriage was registered to apply. That’s one, and then on the back of that, therefore, it is important for all of those couples who are either thinking of getting married or are married, but perhaps are married in countries or in places where they chose to marry or register their marriage purely for convenience, and they don’t really have a relationship to that country. If you have one of those marriages, let’s say you got married in Seychelles, in Mauritius, because of the convenience and the exotic experience, then just know now that in the event of a divorce it would be it would be if you were here in this country registered under that marriage certificate, it would be the laws of that country, that is Mauritius, that would apply. So, for any of those couples who are thinking of getting married or who have been married and are finding themselves in this situation, it’s advisable then to go and ratify their marriage certificate in a country where they’re from or who’s laws they want to have applied, and then update their records here on the basis of that marriage certificate. I think that’s a very positive development because it does provide a lot more options to a greater segment of the population in terms of the choice of law, and it also makes it more neutral with regards to the couple in terms of who’s law applies. It is a significant step forward. I’m sure there will be many interesting case studies that we can discuss in future podcasts on the basis of how this particular law is being implemented.
Tim Elliot: That’s part 2 in our special series of Lawgical podcasts. The D word, divorce. Our special guest, Child and Adolescent Consultant Psychiatrist, Dr. Samaa Al Abd was with us today. Dr. Samaa is a Fellow of the Royal College of Psychiatrists in the U.K. She’s been practicing medicine in the United Kingdom since 1985 and in Dubai since 2015. Thank you so much for your expertise.
Dr. Samaa Al Abd: Thank you so much for hosting me.
Tim Elliot: As always, our legal expert here on Lawgical, Ludmila Yamalova, Managing Partner here at Yamalova & Plewka. As ever, Ludmila, thank you for your insight and expertise.
Ludmila Yamalova: It was a true pleasure and a very insightful discussion. Thank you to you both, Dr. Samaa and Tim.
Tim Elliot: If you have a legal question you’d like answered in a future episode of Lawgical or if you’d like a consultation with a qualified U.A.E. experienced legal professional, you can now WhatsApp us directly, 00971 52 525 1611
